To celebrate International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month in March, I’m interviewing 4 exceptional female professionals who I admire to talk about topics on career development, leadership and gender equality in STEM.
My third guest is Dr. Daphne Tsatsoulis, Head of Applied Science with a background in Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence. Daphne shared her experience navigating her career journey in academia and in the industry and making many changes along the way. We also touched on topics like how to keep women in STEM, work spouses, salary negotiation, and more.
Here’s a summary of our conversations. Please enjoy!
Meet Daphne Tsatsoulis
Sinan: Please tell us who you are and what you do professionally.
Daphne: I’m a Head of Applied Science at Zalando. I head up a team using applied science methods to solve e-commerce problems.
Sinan: What does your typical workday look like?
Daphne: I do a lot of people management. My workday would range from having time to think, which is rare, attending lots of meetings on on-going projects, and making strategic decisions. I still do technical reviews and technical decision making, though. I interact with teams on a daily basis in stand-ups and planning meetings. I talk to my colleagues about what we plan to do for the next year within our department and our teams, and how we work together to achieve those goals.
Sinan: What or who would you say has been the biggest impact on your career?
Daphne: My Ph.D. advisor was an amazing human being and a great advisor. It was incredible learning from him not only how to do research, but how to mentor people, how to grow and develop people, which is a skill that needs to be learned and he did that very well.
But the biggest impact would be from my family. My parents have always helped me with the hard decisions, always celebrated the successes, and always told me, “It’s okay. Next time!” when something didn’t work out. It’s very important to have those people in your life. They can be your parents or your partner or your best friends.
It’s okay to change.
Sinan: Your background is in Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence. How did you get started in this field?
Daphne: My undergraduate was in Electrical Engineering. In the summers, I would do either internships in the industry or research internships at universities. I started doing signal processing because I really liked the math. From signal processing, I went into pattern recognition and speech processing, and I ended up doing a summer research program in pattern recognition on images. I really enjoyed it! So when I decided to go to graduate school, I wanted to focus on that. I got the opportunity to go to the University of Illinois, where I was able to do my Ph.D. in Computer Vision specifically.
I didn’t have much of an introduction to the field before I went and did my doctorate in it. In addition, not being a Computer Science undergrad meant that I didn’t necessarily have the same background as a lot of my colleagues. I could do analog circuit design, but I couldn’t program in Java. It’s always interesting when you’re from a different background, because there are things you’ll have to learn. It’s going to take a bit more effort in some areas. At the same time, it’s very exciting to make big changes.
Sinan: It’s a big move going from Electrical Engineering to Computer Vision! Do you have suggestions or tips for people who are considering moving into a new field?
Daphne: I’ve seen people do much more extreme things. For example, I have a Software Engineer on my team who used to be a speech therapist. A lot of the people who I’ve seen made big changes to go back to school. There’re now transition Masters programs that are especially for individuals who want to make that change. People designing the programs are aware that your previous degree or experience might not naturally lend itself to the new one. So that could be a great academic option to start in a new field.
Additionally, if you’re lucky enough, you could get the experience and make the career transition at your current company. We have Software Engineers who become Applied Scientists at Zalando and vice versa.
If you have the ambition, talk to your peer group, and talk to your network. There’ll probably be more opportunities than you realize.
Sinan: As you mentioned, you discovered the field in Computer Vision through various summer internships. Internships are such a great way to explore one’s interests and different options before one decides on a career path to settle into.
Daphne: I think especially when you’re in your first years working or when you’re in the university, trying out different options is a fantastic thing to do.
If you’re in graduate school doing a Masters or a Ph.D., you might be considering, do I want to be in academia or do I want to go into industry. Try them both.
Try different types of companies, different sizes of companies, different focuses in the company. Get a flavor for what you enjoy, what your deal breakers are, and what kind of work culture you like. It’s a great time to explore things and move companies often. In the beginning of your career, you shouldn’t be 10 years in the same company. Go get different experiences. See different cultures. See different ways of working. It’ll make you a stronger specialist, for sure. But it’s also fun. I’ve moved countries in my career as well. You can make a lot of fun changes.
Sinan: How did you make the decision between a career in academia and in the industry?
Daphne: It was kind of made for me. I was not very successful in academia, to be honest. I did get my degree, and I’m very proud of that. But I was not very good at publishing, which is a requirement to become a professor. I really liked teaching. I really loved working with students and saw their curiosity and enthusiasm. But I was not a very good researcher. That’s why I do applied science now. I’m much better there.
When I started in academia, I wanted to be a professor. That’s why I did a Ph.D. Along the way, I found I was not that good at this, so I decided to try something else. I tried industry and it worked much better for me. It was the right kind of culture and the right type of science.
It’s okay to change your mind and change your mind often.
On leadership
Sinan: You started your career in the industry as an individual contributor (IC), then switched to a management role. What made you decide on the switch from the technical track to the management track?
Daphne: It kind of happened naturally. I started to really become curious about the non-technical decisions , like the bigger strategic decisions and the project coordination decisions. I started realizing that ICs should always talk to stakeholders, because ICs know what they’re talking about. You should never go through someone. So as I had more of those conversations and more of those relationships, I started to expand my role outside of an IC into management. It was actually with the most recent career move that I really went firmly into a full-time management role. So it’s been a bit of a change. In my previous role, I would have done management, but I also would have run some research projects and written my own code. So this is the first time I’m really only on management, and I enjoy it a lot.
There was a while when I was trying to figure out which path I should choose. The one thing I’d say is that it’s much easier to go from IC to management than it is to go from management to IC. So keep your technical strengths as long as you can, because it’s very hard to go the other way.
Sinan: What would you say is the biggest difference between being an IC and a manager?
Daphne: As a manager, I’m there to help my team. I’m there to support them. I’m there to do anything they need and I’m there to unblock them. As an IC, I’m there to think about problems and solve them and experiment. It’s a different type of focus. You’re focusing on different kinds of problems and different kinds of situations. Practically speaking, I don’t code anymore. I do still get to look at experimental results and read papers, but I wouldn’t be the one who gets to make all of the experiment decisions and gets to really live that process.
Sinan: Have you encountered any challenges in your transition from an IC to a manager?
Daphne: Many :) Being a manager or a people lead of any kind takes practice, and it’s practice while learning. You can’t go simulate it and then try it. With every response in every situation, especially when they’re new, I would always reflect on it, “Am I responding correctly here?” Then a few days later, I’m like, “Nope, definitely did not respond correctly”. Then you have to go back and fix things. So as I’m more new to this situation, I’m learning a lot of skills and tools.
Sinan: It sounds to me that in your career journey, you’re really good at learning from mistakes, and very creative in discovering new and better directions.
Sinan: Do you think leadership skills are innate or can be learned?
Daphne: I think leadership is not innate. I think it’s a skill that needs to be learned. Sometimes we say, “Oh, that person is a natural leader.” But I feel when we say that, we mean only one certain type of people. I’ve met leaders who are completely different from each other. You don’t need to be a certain way to be a leader. You see that across disciplines. There’s no one way to do it. It’s very important to find what works for you, but you do need to find it. It does take trial and error.
There’re various hard skills and soft skills in leadership. For example, Agile or Scrum, a lot of those project management practices are hard skills. Hard skills can be learned, so are soft skills. No one is born a negotiator. There are techniques for it.
Sinan: What kind of soft skills does a leader need?
Daphne: Communication is probably the most important one, including both listening and writing. One thing that most surprised me coming from a technical background was how much I need to write, and how well I need to be in my communication skills. For anyone studying STEM majors, my advice is to take a course in writing or written communication, because more of your time than you expect will be spent on writing.
Sinan: For engineers unsure about whether they should stay on the technical track or switch to a management role, do you have any advice for them to find the better fit?
Daphne: The best thing I can tell you is to try it. If you start taking on a few responsibilities in management, you can start to see if those are things you’d enjoy. For example, onboarding a new team member, coordinating a project, being the technical lead on a project. There’re a few things that you can do that sit between both roles to give you a taste for the other role without having to fully commit.
Keeping women in STEM
Sinan: There’s a much lower ratio of women in management roles than men in STEM fields. What’s your take on this and what do you think individuals and companies can do to help change the situation?
Daphne: There are two problems. One is attracting women to the field, the other one is keeping them. We need to treat the two problems differently.
There’s a lower representation of women in STEM, but there’s an even lower representation of older women in STEM. I think Silicon Valley was experiencing an exodus of women in STEM who are 30 years old or older. So after 30 many of them would leave the field. One thing we really need to think about is how we keep the women we have in STEM. If we had all females as ICs and they were the most powerful principals in the world, I’d be delighted. But we do need to think about what it is that we’re not doing right, that is making older women leave tech. In theory, we should have the same proportion of women who were 20, 10 years ago as we do today, who are 30.
Sinan: What can companies do to become better at keeping women?
Daphne: So this is my situation. I have a young child. For me, one thing that helps me keep my current role in this tech company, is the understanding that I have a child and that’s part of my life. I have very strict working hours. If I have to leave early because she needs to go to the doctor, that’d be fine. I see that across female and male colleagues. So the example is set by everyone. My male colleagues have blockers in their calendar for 4:00 p.m. child pick-up and childcare when they are not available for a meeting. That kind of behavior means that I’m comfortable doing it too. It means that anyone on my teams is comfortable doing it. I’ve never felt penalized in any way at Zalando for having a daughter. It enables me to have the work / life balance that I need. I cannot be in a company that doesn’t allow that. Not all women, however, have children. But often when there are children at home, women disproportionately take on the care.
Sinan: I think it’s very important for companies to cultivate the culture that allows people to talk about family life and to be open about discussions on work / life balance.
Daphne: It’s healthy for everyone. It makes everyone’s life happy.
When I was interviewing for this job, my daughter was only three months old. I was still on maternity leave. I told the company, “I’m happy to take it, but I won’t be available for another four months.” They replied, “That’s totally fine.” When I started the job, they said, “We know that you’re just off your maternity leave. Do you need a phased introduction? Do you want to start with 60% or 80% work week just to get yourself back into it?” Those things make a big difference, because it’s just the reality. There are more older women who might have children, and you have to make it work. You have to make your job work for their family life.
Negotiating the pay
Sinan: Not having enough women in management roles is one piece of gender inequality in STEM. Another important piece is the pay gap. There are many causes contributing to the gender pay gap. One reason is related to negotiated compensation. When negotiation is involved in determining the pay, women tend to get paid less than men. What do you think the problem is? Do you have any advice for women who might not feel the most comfortable when negotiating for a higher salary?
Daphne: Unfortunately, you do have to negotiate. There are a few companies that have set pay for everyone on the same level. But normally there’s a band and it’s a back-and-forth between yourself and the recruiter. They’re trying to get you low on the band, but high enough that you’ll take the job. You need to be high enough on the band that you’re happy and comfortable with that pay for the next two to three years.
One thing I do at the beginning of any interview process is ask for the salary band to make sure it’s within the expectations. If it’s not within your expectations, then it’s the wrong role for you. It could be too junior or could be that you wouldn’t be willing for the salary. In that case there’s no reason to spend your time on that interview process.
But you do have to negotiate. It’s not personal. They won’t think any less of you. It’s just part of the ritual. If you feel uncomfortable with it – what I do is Google search either email templates or search for “how to negotiate”, and I will read the script. If you need to read the script, read the script. Do whatever it takes to get the message across that you would be comfortable with X as your salary. Plus never forget benefits, e.g. stock options and paid time off – all of these benefits are incredibly important. When the salary isn’t negotiable, the benefits might be.
Connecting with peers
Sinan: Have you had any mentors that helped you along the way in your career?
Daphne: I’ve never had an official mentor. I’ve had my Ph.D. advisor who helped me with my research. I’ve had supervisors who have given me perspectives at work. But I’ve never had someone helping me with the path in life and the overarching plan. Maybe I haven’t met the person yet who would be a good mentor, but I often find the people who’ve helped me the most are my peers. They know exactly where I am. They know the situation I’m going through. Having peers who you’re able to talk to openly can be a fantastic thing. So I’ve always relied on my peers to help me and guide me.
Sinan: I feel sometimes it can be hard to find peers in the same company that you can talk very openly with.
Daphne: I don’t know if you’ve heard of the concept of a work husband or a work wife. So the idea is that someone at work who’s like your best friend in the company and who you can have that open, honest and trusting relationship with. I’ve always been much happier in a job, if I have a work spouse – someone when I come out of a meeting I can turn to, “We need to get a coffee to talk about what just happened.”, and someone whose suggestions and perspective I trust. So I’d definitely recommend work spouses :)
Sinan: That sounds awesome. I think I need to find one. However I have to admit that ever since we started working remotely, it’s been difficult to connect with people in more meaningful ways, especially if you join a company during the remote setup phase.
Daphne: I was in the same situation. I onboarded remotely. You can meet people online, but it’s somehow not exactly the same. I’ve been lucky enough to go to the office a few times, but that’s not always going to be an option with remote working. I don’t know how you make the same level of connection, especially with the people with whom you don’t work. One nice thing about going to the office is that I’ve met people from other teams who I wouldn’t interact with in my regular meetings. I don’t know yet how we accomplish that virtually.
I do look forward to the hybrid work mode with both options. Going to the office is a nice change of pace and good for seeing people and meeting new people. The option to work from home is a big relief on certain days.
Next steps
Sinan: What are the next steps in your career?
Daphne: The immediate next step is to become good at the job I’m in. I’m new to this role, and I want to be able to do this job very well. This job challenges me in new ways, so I have a lot to learn and improve on. That’s exciting for me because I’d like to get to the point where this job is easy. Then I’ll think about what comes next.
A friend of mine gave me the advice once. He said, there are moments in your life where you want to challenge yourself career-wise, and there are moments where you need to be stable. Right now, I need my career to become stable just because of a young kid. It’s a good time for me to have a job that I can do for a few years.
There are different points in your life where you’re going to need very different things. There could be moments where you want a complete new challenge or maybe you want to work at a startup. You want the excitement and something new. There are other moments where you want the stability of a big established company. It’s okay to do all of them – not at the same time – but try different things and know that in different stages of your life, you want different things and that’s perfectly fine.